"'FOSSE/VERDON' COMING TO FX"- Page 18

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 5/23/19 at 9:12am

As big a deal that Liza was in Chicago- it was not that hot a ticket- I saw it with Liza as a kid- used to go to matinees every Saturday with a friend- and we got tickets to Chicago right at the box office the day of the performance- never bought tickets in advance in those days as a 13 year ole- except for Funny Girl- which never had day of tickets and when we found out Barbra was leaving- got two tickets for November right before her exit. So as much as a big deal is being made of Liza in Chicago- it was not a Hello, Dolly sized hit when Liza appeared- I remember getting a pretty good seat- though at 13- I did not understand it, I must admit. It went over my head- as some of the shows did then- but I must say that most of the shows I did see were very comprehensible to me.

[SmoothLover]

Posted: 5/23/19 at 2:41pm

Owen22 said: "BrodyFosse123 said: "Was Nichol the biological daughter of Bob Fosse?

Of course. All this was clearly covered in Episode 7. After considering adoption, Gwen eventually became pregnant with Nicole in 1963. Bob Fosse's gift to Gwen for her return to the stage after her maternity hiatus was 1966's SWEET CHARITY.

As with ALL things, Bob Fosse questioned if he was capable of conceiving Nicole due to what their doctor mentioned. He always doubted everything about himself. "

No. As a matter of fact it still ambiguous as to who fathered Nicole. The reprise of the Razzle Dazzle number shows that in the episode. It's actually a brilliant sleight-of-hand. At first the number is there to underline the scene in which they are trying to trick the guy from the adoptionagency into giving them a child. Which isn't much of a trick. So I'm going, what is the purpose of the song? And then it's brought back at the end after that seemingly afterthought scene where Bob's sexual potency is called into question. As ishis actual parentage of Nicole. Only Gwen knew for sure...And that is what the reprise of the Razzle Dazzle (with Gwen singing it) at the end of the episode represents. Did she or didn't she? Apparently even Nicole doesn't know.

 

Thank you . I thought I was going crazy about the ambiguity over Nichol's father.

I think when Gwen (Williams) was waving the quarter at Fosse saying she was one phone call away from getting him axed there might have been a better way to read the line. That is why it came off a little overwrought to me. 

I also thought the pregnancy was foreshadowed earlier in the episode not that it was a bad thing.


"

 

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 5/23/19 at 8:22pm

BWAY Baby2, this is the second time in this thread you have taken a minor point in a post of mine and gone off on it. Maybe that's a habit that doesn't need to be encouraged, but no harm done.

It was a different era--a year later I walked up to the b.o. and got a last-minute ticket to the newly opened ANNIE--and Minnelli's appearance in CHICAGO wasn't advertised. You seem to imply you saw it at a Saturday matinee. How would the matinee ladies even know about it (at least before the Times re-review)?

In the TV series, which is not always factually accurate of course, Fosse tells Verdon there was an unusually long line at the box office as soon as Minnelli began appearing in the show. As I said, I lived over a thousand miles away, so I was merely reporting what friends in the business told me about the reaction to Minnelli's appearance. And what theater people were saying is more germane to Verdon's feelings than whether you got tickets to a matinee.

And while I'm on the subject, it was also clearly implied in the TV show that Fosse wanted to see his show with a younger star (Minnelli was 30; Verdon was 50) and that, as much as anything, must have been a blow to Miss Verdon. Like all dancers and like the series shows (ad infinitum), she had to be painfully aware of the short shelf-life of a dancer's career. (It may not have been just their personal relationship that led Fosse to follow Verdon with Ann Reinking, age 28 or 29.)

As I'm sure you recall, the really hard-to-get ticket that year was A CHORUS LINE. But on the whole, the 1970s was New York City's and Broadway's financial nadir, with the city gaining a reputation for being filthy, crime-ridden and in disrepair. Tourists were not flocking to Broadway as they had in the 1960s or as they do today. So you got your tickets. I envy you, I really do!

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 5/23/19 at 8:31pm

FWIW, I am surprised at posters finding the reference to Nichol Fosse's paternity "ambiguous". I thought it was obvious that if Verdon seemed less than wholeheartedly sincere in her response to Fosse, it was out of exasperation that even in what should have been their happiest moment, she had to once again blunt her husband's projections and bolster his fragile ego. She wanted instead to simply celebrate what she said was a "miracle".

It was already explained by the doctor that "low motility of sperm" doesn't mean pregnancy is impossible. (The evidence may be entirely anecdotal, but I've heard more than a few couples say they got pregnant once they have stopped "trying so hard". A number of people give up trying to conceive and adopt, only to get an extra child the "natural way".)

[Bettyboy72]

Posted: 5/23/19 at 8:46pm

I truly hope Gwen and Bob's lives were not this dour. Michelle Williams is the saving grace for me. She elevates the material. This continues to feel like a low rent and less compelling All That Jazz. I like that they are showing how driven and desperate Gwen is. I went to a talk back many moons ago with Chita Rivera and she said that Gwen and her were told early on in their careers that they were not pretty enough to ever be in films or television so to focus on stage and dancing. She said it really hurt them and it made Gwen very driven to keep working and stay relevant. 

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 5/23/19 at 9:49pm

^^^^ I could not agree more, Bettyboy, especially about the portrayal of Verdon as a three-dimensional human being, but still essentially a decent person. She and Fosse were the toasts of "the greatest city on earth" (as New Yorkers love to tell themselves)--and not just once, but multiple times! Surely they had a few upbeat moments, even if they were riddled with insecurities.

I wonder if some posters' problem with the portrayal of Verdon is that she is shown to be much more multi-faceted than any of the famous characters she played.

[Bettyboy72]

Posted: 5/23/19 at 10:46pm

GavestonPS said: "^^^^ I could not agree more, Bettyboy, especially about the portrayal of Verdon as a three-dimensional human being, but still essentially a decent person. She and Fosse were the toastsof "the greatest city on earth" (as New Yorkers love to tell themselves)--and not just once, but multiple times! Surely they had a few upbeat moments, even if they were riddled with insecurities.

I wonder if some posters'problem with the portrayal of Verdon is that she is shown to be much more multi-faceted than any of the famous characters she played."

Gaveston, yes. I think the series shows Fosse as a lucky loser who was incredibly self involved and was blessed with great people around him who elevated his work. Gwen is shown as having gumption-she's not perfect, but by God is she going to fight for every opportunity and she has a moral center. She elicits empathy and understanding as well as sadness for all she never got. The writers really missed the boat on this. It leaves me doubting Fosse's genius which I hope wasn't their intent. 

 

[gypsy101]

Posted: 5/24/19 at 12:34am

am i the only one confused about the soundtrack released each week? they don’t seem to be releasing nearly all of the stuff recorded; why was Nowadays not on itunes this week? in fact i was shocked cause this week we finally got a Michelle Williams recording at all (for the first time)

also am i crazy or did the actress playing Nicole suddenly change this week

Updated On: 5/24/19 at 12:34 AM

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 5/24/19 at 4:12am

BWAY Baby2, this is the second time in this thread you have taken a minor point in a post of mine and gone off on it. Maybe that's a habit that doesn't need to be encouraged, but no harm done.
GAVESTON- I am allowed to comment on anything I want- and if I want to share some memories of getting tickets that day for Chicago- meaning that although it was a hot ticket- it was not all that hard to get- maybe someone was interested in hearing that. The first go round of Chicago was not the monster hit it is today. Just sharing some memories- please do not read my posts if all you want to do is complain and criticize.

[darquegk]

Posted: 5/24/19 at 10:48am

I think you're absolutely meant to leave it doubting Fosse's genius, but not the genius of the work he and Verdon created. It's pointed that the show is called "FOSSE/VERDON" instead of "FOSSE" like the book it's based on- the whole show is deconstructing the "tortured solitary genius auteur" myth of Fosse and in general, revealing that no individual talent is enough without collaborators. What we think of is Fosse is usually Fosse filtered by way of Verdon.

[BrodyFosse123]

Posted: 5/24/19 at 12:37pm

All artists have collaborators in some capacity. Not a single artist can claim 100% of their work was done entirely by them. Even Jerome Robbins had help for WEST SIDE STORY. He brought in choreographer Peter Gennaro to choreograph ALL of the Latin dances: the mambo in “The Dance at the Gym” to “America.”

He received no credit until 2006 when Chita Rivera revealed this secret in her Broadway show CHITA RIVERA: THE DANCER’S LIFE.

[Trish2]

Posted: 5/24/19 at 1:10pm

BrodyFosse123 said: "All artists have collaborators in some capacity. Not a single artist can claim 100% of their work was done entirely by them. Even Jerome Robbins had help for WEST SIDE STORY. He brought in choreographer Peter Gennaro to choreograph ALL of the Latin dances: the mambo in “The Dance at the Gym” to “America.”

He received no credit until 2006 when Chita Rivera revealed this secret in her Broadwayshow CHITA RIVERA: THE DANCER’S LIFE."

Yes! But just look at many of the choreographers working on Broadway today. They have several projects going on simultaneously, that they often don't devote enough time (and creativity) to any one show. There are sometimes more than one assistant and one associate as well.

Heck, look at "The Cher Show." In addition to having an assistant and a co-choreographer, Christopher Gattelli had six, count em'-six ,additional co-choreographers for the finale alone. And sadly, THAT is what they come up with?

This is also why few Broadway choreographers working today leave any kind of imprint of their own style. A select few working, and too many additional hands (and feet) working with them--at times with no guidance.

I'm all for collaboration--but picking those collaborators wisely is the key.

 

Updated On: 5/24/19 at 01:10 PM

[cknick]

Posted: 5/24/19 at 4:00pm

Any reviews from anyone who has read the book?  I just got my copy today and can't wait to dig in once the show finishes. 

[BrodyFosse123]

Posted: 5/24/19 at 4:58pm

cknick said: "Any reviews from anyone who has read the book? I just got my copy today and can't wait to dig in once the show finishes."

Having read EVERY biography previously written about Bob Fosse, Sam Wasson's FOSSE is on its own.  Wasson is an acclaimed biographer who gains access to sources hence why his books are so well received. FOSSE is now considered the bible on Bob Fosse.  For me it was an easy read and I learned so much more about Bob Fosse than I had previously known for decades.  So much is covered in detail which is why it was the source for FX's limited series FOSSE/VERDON.   The series uses the book for its source material on Bob Fosse and Nicole Fosse provided the writers all the source material regarding her mother Gwen Verdon as that isn't expanded on at all in the book FOSSE.  

Sam Wasson had full cooperation from countless people that had worked with Bob Fosse and here is an excellent mini-feature about Sam Wasson 'becoming Fosse' to learn about the man.  Several people heavily associated with Bob Fosse make appearances: 

 

 

 

[cknick]

Posted: 5/24/19 at 5:17pm

Thank you, BrodyFosse123!!

[bk]

Posted: 5/24/19 at 6:36pm

BWAY Baby2 said: "As big a deal that Liza was in Chicago- it was not that hot a ticket- I saw it with Liza as a kid- used to go to matinees every Saturday with a friend- and we got tickets to Chicago right at the box office the day of the performance- never bought tickets in advance in those days as a 13 year ole- except for Funny Girl- which never had day of tickets and when we found out Barbra was leaving- got two tickets for November right before her exit. So as much as a big deal is being made of Liza in Chicago- it was not a Hello, Dolly sized hit when Liza appeared- I remember getting a pretty good seat- though at 13- I did not understand it, I must admit. It went over my head- as some of the shows did then- but I must say that most of the shows I did see were very comprehensible to me."

You know, math isn't my strong suit, but you do understand you're telling people you were thirteen in 1975 when you saw Chicago.  So, let me just understand this - you bought tickets to see Barbra before she left Funny Girl in December of 1965.  Which would make you three.  So, just picturing this in my head - you toddled up to the box-office and got a nice seat to see Barbra when you were three?  Does not compute.  So please do explain this to everyone.  I, for one, look forward to solving this enigmatic puzzle.

 

Updated On: 5/24/19 at 06:36 PM

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Posted: 5/24/19 at 7:52pm

This thread has gotten entertaining.

[EdEval]

Posted: 5/24/19 at 8:26pm

Have you listened closely to the lyrics of 'Now A Days" from CHICAGO?   You can like the life your'e living you can live the life you like.  you can even marry Harry or mess around with Ike.  What does that imply huh?  Naughty, naughty.....

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 5/24/19 at 8:53pm

Bettyboy72 said: "...Gaveston, yes. I think the series shows Fosse as a lucky loser who was incredibly self involved and was blessed with great people around him who elevated his work. Gwen is shown as having gumption-she's not perfect, but by God is she going to fight for every opportunity and she has a moral center. She elicitsempathy and understanding as well as sadness for all she never got. The writers really missed the boat on this. It leaves me doubting Fosse's genius which I hope wasn't their intent.

"

I just started reading the biography on which the series is based, but already the author has asserted that Fosse had trouble distinguishing between what he invented and what he borrowed (or "stole", if you prefer) from others. And he tends to attribute the unique "Fosse style" as much to accidents of the man's own physicality and his feeling he was basically just a product of bad burlesque, rather than acknowledging that all geniuses build on the work of others.

On the other hand, the biography paints a much better picture of Fosse's irresistible charm and how much enjoyment people derived from being and working with him, things we aren't really getting from the series or Sam Rockwell.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 5/24/19 at 9:04pm

BWAY Baby2 said: "GAVESTON- I am allowed to comment on anything I want- and if I want to share some memories of getting tickets that day for Chicago- meaning that although it was a hot ticket- it was not all that hard to get- maybe someone was interested in hearing that. The first go round of Chicago was not the monster hit it is today. Just sharing some memories- please do not read my posts if all you want to do is complain and criticize."

Of course you can comment on anything. I probably shouldn't have mentioned it; I just found it odd that you should play the contrarian with me, considering that you and I agree on most things re the show and the series.

EVERYONE HERE ALREADY KNOWS that CHICAGO was not a smash hit in its first run. I said so myself in comparing it to A CHORUS LINE. We were only talking about the six weeks when Minnelli played Roxie. How odd you didn't pick THAT up in replying to me. But as you imply, you be you. As I wrote, no harm done.

But you writing whatever you like doesn't affect my ability to respond. Goose/gander and all that jazz.

It occurred to me later that you getting last-minute tix to Minnelli in CHICAGO and my getting last-minute tix the next year to a legitimate smash hit in ANNIE probably proves nothing. We both may have secured house seats that were released on the day of the show, proving nothing about weekly grosses.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 5/24/19 at 9:22pm

BrodyFosse123 said: "All artists have collaborators in some capacity. Not a single artist can claim 100% of their work was done entirely by them. Even Jerome Robbins had help for WEST SIDE STORY. He brought in choreographer Peter Gennaro to choreograph ALL of the Latin dances: the mambo in “The Dance at the Gym” to “America.”

He received no credit until 2006 when Chita Rivera revealed this secret in her Broadwayshow CHITA RIVERA: THE DANCER’S LIFE."

Wow! That's some revelation, considering that I think "America" is by far the best choreography in the "Robbins" production. The ballet stuff in Act II bores me as much as the song "Somewhere".

*****

I have a question for you, Brody (which may be answered in the biography; I just started reading it yesterday):

Those of us who know ALL THAT JAZZ will recall the scene where John Lithgow does his best Hal Prince impersonation, showing Prince making notes on the CHICAGO script "as a friend", but implying it was really an attempt to steal the show away from the ailing Fosse.

In his autobiography of their career together, COLORED LIGHTS, Fred Ebb is emphatic that nothing of the kind ever took place, that there was never any question of proceeding with CHICAGO without Fosse, that the scene in ATJ was just a product of Fosse's paranoia. Yet in the "Let's make 'Nowadays' a duet" scene in the series, I thought I heard Verdon tell Fosse that she saved the show for him when "they wanted to go with someone else". Now there are a number of possibilities:

1. The dialogue in the scene was based on ATJ as much as real life; it isn't a documentary after all.

2. Verdon was lying, out of sheer rage at his taking away her solo.

3. By "they", she meant the producers; Kander & Ebb never knew the suggestion had been made.

4. Fred Ebb forgot.

As I said, the bio may answer my question in several hundred pages, but do you have an opinion on this? I very much appreciate you sharing your expertise, whether or not this is a question you can answer.

 

[bk]

Posted: 5/24/19 at 11:15pm

While Gennaro wasn't specifically credited with the Dance at the Gym and America, are you people really trying to say he received NO credit for the show until 2006?  Because he has always clearly been credited as co-choreographer of the show.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 5/25/19 at 2:10am

bk said: "While Gennaro wasn't specifically credited with the Dance at the Gym and America, are you people really trying to say he received NO credit for the show until 2006? Because he has always clearly been credited as co-choreographer of the show."

bk, I'm not authorized to speak for others, but I think the point is that despite the co-choreographer credit, Gennaro's contributions were sort of lost in the haze of history and our devotion to the above-mentioned myth of the solitary, tortured genius. I knew Gennaro's credit, but I think I filed it away as "okay, he was a more than usually talented assistant." I'm sure you and Pal Joey and everyone who remembers THE BLACK CROOK always knew better.

But when I saw "Gennaro did the choreography for 'America'" I was struck because I showed the film version of that number as an example of a scene building into song and then dance whenever I lectured on the history of musical theater. And I know *I* never gave Gennaro credit, even though I knew who he was and that he was very talented. Entirely my own fault, of course.

[Owen22]

Posted: 5/25/19 at 4:57am

bk said: "BWAY Baby2 said: "As big a deal that Liza was in Chicago- it was not that hot a ticket- I saw it with Liza as a kid- used to go to matinees every Saturday with a friend- and we got tickets to Chicago right at the box office the day of the performance- never bought tickets in advance in those days as a 13 year ole- except for Funny Girl- which never had day of tickets and when we found out Barbra was leaving- got two tickets for November right before her exit. So as much as a big deal is being made of Liza in Chicago- it was not a Hello, Dolly sized hit when Liza appeared- I remember getting a pretty good seat- though at 13- I did not understand it, I must admit. It went over my head- as some of the shows did then- but I must say that most of the shows I did see were very comprehensible to me."

You know, math isn't my strong suit, but you do understand you're telling people you were thirteen in 1975 when you saw Chicago. So, let me just understand this - you bought tickets to see Barbra before she left Funny Girl in December of 1965. Which would make you three. So, just picturing this in my head - you toddled up to the box-office and got a nice seat to see Barbra when you were three? Does not compute. So please do explain this to everyone. I, for one, look forward to solving this enigmatic puzzle."

 

Well, it's right there in his name....

 

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 5/25/19 at 6:15am

Owen22

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Posted: 5/25/19 at 4:57am

bk said: "BWAY Baby2 said: "As big a deal that Liza was in Chicago- it was not that hot a ticket- I saw it with Liza as a kid- used to go to matinees every Saturday with a friend- and we got tickets to Chicago right at the box office the day of the performance- never bought tickets in advance in those days as a 13 year ole- except for Funny Girl- which never had day of tickets and when we found out Barbra was leaving- got two tickets for November right before her exit. So as much as a big deal is being made of Liza in Chicago- it was not a Hello, Dolly sized hit when Liza appeared- I remember getting a pretty good seat- though at 13- I did not understand it, I must admit. It went over my head- as some of the shows did then- but I must say that most of the shows I did see were very comprehensible to me."

You know, math isn't my strong suit, but you do understand you're telling people you were thirteen in 1975 when you saw Chicago. So, let me just understand this - you bought tickets to see Barbra before she left Funny Girl in December of 1965. Which would make you three. So, just picturing this in my head - you toddled up to the box-office and got a nice seat to see Barbra when you were three? Does not compute. So please do explain this to everyone. I, for one, look forward to solving this enigmatic puzzle."

SORRY OWEN- I DID NOT DO THE MATH- I wrote this off the top of my head and I guess my memories are not the greatest. I saw Funny Girl- Flora The Red Menace- Mame - Sweet Charity-  Cabaret - Roar OF The Greasepaint- which I did not at all understand- Drat The Cat- The Price- did not understand it- The Great White Hope- did not understand it- Skyscraper, The Impossible Years- Wait Until Dark- I could go on and on.... when I went to Broadway every Saturday matinee with a friend- I am now 67- so I guess I was around 13 and in seventh grade. I forgot that Chicago came later- and so did a lot of other classic shows- like Sunday In The Park with Mandy and Bernadette- came later. I did not fact check- but regardless- I DID see these shows and am not talking out of my a>>, Sorry for giving you that impression- My memories from so many years ago got confused- sorry- but I am for real. Have been a theater fan since I was a kid- and still am here in Atlanta where I see everything I can- though strangely enough I did miss The Prom at the Alliance Theater- found out about it a few weeks before it closed and it was a tough ticket to get- and I though it sounded a bit dumb- and now I am thinking of making a special trip to NY to see it- one of my theater mistakes- and hopefully to be rectified before it closes- I do have tickets too Tootsie, Hadestown and Moulin Rouge beginning on October 22- A Tuesday- and the last performance of Prom seems to be October 20 unless they extend it. And I do not like to visit family for more than a couple of days- so I will see what happens.

And sorry for my dates confusion- I guess it all comes out a blur unless I sit down and actually look up the dates of these shows to put them in order of seeing them.

Updated On: 5/25/19 at 06:15 AM